We all know about "The Bible " and the "Judith " episode. I am also read somewhere that he turned down "The Yellow Rolls Royce " and yes "Airplane ".
Was there any talk about him scoring "The Agony and the Ecstacy " ?
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scoreman |
Non- Rozsa Scores |
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I am curious if fellow members can recall from correspondence and interviews films that Rozsa declined or missed out on during his film career ( especially in
the period from 1963 from "The VIPs" to 1968 and "The Power " ) ?
We all know about "The Bible " and the "Judith " episode. I am also read somewhere that he turned down "The Yellow Rolls Royce " and yes "Airplane ". Was there any talk about him scoring "The Agony and the Ecstacy " ? |
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William D McCrum |
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He did turn down 'Body Heat' as too sleazy (despite its being a remake of 'Double Indemnity'). There's a story, apparently massively
exaggerated that he was offered 'Star Wars' but said no.
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Doug Raynes |
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There was also "Mommie Dearest". In the interview published in Soundtrack magazine December 1982 he said "She was a lovely woman....I cannot
force myself to make her more vicious and horrible with my music". I also recall reading somewhere that he turned down "The Yellow Rolls Royce".
Didn't he also turn down "Star Trek 2 Wrath of Khan", offered by Nic Meyer for whom he did Time After Time?
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A Lee Hern |
'BODY HEAT' SHEDS LITTLE LIGHT | ||
William D McCrum wrote: BODY HEAT is only a poor man's homage to DOUBLE INDEMNITY, without much purpose. Perhaps most critically it also lacks the moral anchor that is Edward G. Robinson's Barton Keyes character, something Rózsa surely understood when he declined the opportunity to score Lawrence Kasdan's film. As for STAR WARS, the story I heard (and tend to believe) is that a significant amount Rózsa's music was used for the temp tracks while the film was being edited and George Lucas was deciding what kind of score he wanted for it. One project that seems to have been offered Rózsa was the 1982 CBS movie The Wall, about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Rózsa (or his agent) is said to have asked for a fee at which the network balked, though when all was said and done, the producers ended up paying about as much to Leonard Rosenman, who was engaged to write the score.
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06/23/09 08:16:17.
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Doug Raynes |
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A Lee Hern wrote: I can't let that go unchallenged Avie! Body Heat may be an homage but it stands perfectly well on its own terms as brilliant post '40s noir. In fact if there is a better example of modern film noir I've yet to see it. Great direction, script and dialogue and wonderfully atmospheric - the heat and sweat almost drip off the screen. And for sheer sensuousness, for me, Kathleen Turner beats Barbara Stanwyck any day! It's a pity Rozsa didn't score the film, although it inspired John Barry to compose one of his best ever scores. |
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John Fitzpatrick |
Body Heat | ||
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Agree it's a terrific film and score. I've never had much interest in Barry, but this one really nails it -- and in a manner that has nothing at all to
do with Rozsa. Barry could not have written the 1944 score, but neither could Rozsa have written this one! Until last year's LAST VALLEY, this is the
only Barry score I ever purchased on records! (Though I do have a couple of anthologies and inherited some old LPs when I got married..)
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John Fitzpatrick |
"offers" | ||
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Whenever this discussion occurs, let's keep in mind that (absent any documentation) allegations like "was offered" or "was asked to
score" are essentially hearsay. They may represent a concrete offer or they may be one party's recollected understanding (or misunderstanding) of a
casual remark. Happens in Hollywood every day.
The score I regret not having certainly never got to the offer stage, because the film was never made. Soon after Time After Time, Nick Meyer was thinking about a film version of Michael Korda's family memoir, Charmed Lives. Though the book itself was somewhat shallow, it might well have yielded a film adaptation that could have crowned Rozsa's career. But it never happened. |
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William D McCrum |
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A Lee Hern wrote:Not really. Firstly, the Ted Danson (the 'dancin'' lawyer) character who is Hurt's best pal but needs to investigate him reluctantly, is the equivalent factor, as is the police character. These are the 'moral' elements, even though they aren't noticably behaviourally different people to Hurt, superficially. In the original, the Robinson character is the moral 'intuition' or conscience, 'I got this little man inside me, see?', whereas in the later film, the two buddies represent the 'law' and where the line is drawn. The film represents the state of affairs nowadays, where older mentors like Eddie G. really aren't so present in professions as once they were. That's called updating. That the story seems aimless is just the point. In the old film, they all moved inexorably along the 'line', always a railway somehow, to the inevitable Greek denouement. In the newer film there's a mist of heat that the 'hero' gets lost in. That's how modern life seems to people. Neff followed the line of his own desires to doom. Hurt steps OFF the line of conformity to his own doom. They're both good moral lessons, and the fact that the femme fatale in the newer film gets away with it is all the more poignant. That's what can happen. We only ever find out about the ones that DON'T get away with it. |
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John Fitzpatrick |
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And what if BODY HEAT does have less of a "moral center"? It's a more cynical film. Look at when it was made.
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A Lee Hern |
HOMMAGE COLLAGE | ||
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Lawrence Kasdan wants to make a Film Noir, he ends up with BODY HEAT, tedious and tawdry and derivative; he wants to make a Western, the
result is SILVERADO, overblown, silly and, again, derivative. The two films are comparable in that they are, as I wrote about the former,
hommages, and not reflections of a societal need for expression, as DOUBLE INDEMNITY and so many vastly superior Westerns were.
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William D McCrum |
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Is it possible to make a film noir without being derivative? It's a formula.
It depends how 'noir' you mean to be. The tawdriness is part of the story. They're not sympathetic people. Surely the whole point of the film is that these things spring from a banality of evil, a desire to escape the tawdriness that never delivers. The good guys don't always win. Musically speaking, Jerry Goldsmith's 'L.A. Confiidential' comes to mind. It's basically a rehash of his 'Chinatown' and Leonard Bernstein's 'On the Waterfront' but updated with a hard edge. It's derivative all right, but it's good. Had Rozsa scored 'Body Heat', he'd need to have moved out of the MGM formula and into his 'Last Embrace' and 'Providence' ambience. Smaller ensemble and more echo. But restrained. He could have done it. But Rozsa lit the touchpaper with a tragic march in the earlier film. For 'Body Heat', he'd have needed to conjure up banality. That comes easier to the more minimalist Barry (I don't mean that as an insult at all) than to the dramatist Rozsa.
Last Edited By: William D McCrum
06/24/09 08:39:39.
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A Lee Hern |
RÓZSA'S MUSIC AFTER HE'D HAD HIS MORNING COFFEE: BREWED FORCE | ||
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Why would Rózsa have had to "move out of his MGM period" at all? He'd simply have gone back to his Paramount-Universal Noir
sensibilities, the same sensibilities that gave us DOUBLE INDEMINTY, CRISS CROSS, BRUTE FORCE, THE NAKED CITY and THE KILLERS, which were
always closer to his absolute-music style, anyway.
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William D McCrum |
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You can't score the 'Body Heat' film in that way, Avie. Not like 'The Killers' or 'Brute Force'. There isn't the raw action.
Nor the heroic need for a resolution. You could imagine the Mrs. Dietrichson smooth dangerous nocturne style of course. But would he stick to that? And despite
the dissonance and raw rhythmic patterns of those scores, they were still nostalgically Romantic a lot of the time. But this is contemporary, not like
'Dead Men' or 'Hoover'. He would need to discipline himself. And the pacing of 'Body Heat' is very slow. Rozsa is not a slow-paced
composer.
A powerful romantic score is a storyteller of 'epic' nature. In 'Brute Force' we have a tragic hero against a fascist establishment. No problem. In many of these Universal crime films we have characters who took wrong turnings and found their nobility or were sacrificed to it. But 'Body Heat' has no hero. He's tragic, but he's no hero. Rozsa would describe HER but not him. Mind you, I don't think you can distinguish a leitmotif for Walter Neff for that matter in DI either. Except maybe that little four or five-note sad bass figure (folks in the UK would hear it as the 'Rhubarb the Dog' cartoon theme by Alan Hawkeshawe ... did he nick it?!!) repeated throughout the end sequence. Yes, Rozsa could do it. If he was picked, then I'm sure Kasdan felt he could do it. But it would be closer to 'Providence' than 'Criss Cross'. |
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Dan Guenzel |
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I am glad that Rozsa turned down rubbish like "Body Heat" and "God Told Me To" and others. He was too serious an artist to lower himself
to such things.
I once got a touching, indeed heart-aching letter from him describing some of the awful junk that was being offered to him and I am glad that he turned down most - but not all -of it. He was, first and foremost, a gentleman. |
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William D McCrum |
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I must disagree with Dan.
Getting a letter from the maestro is one thing, but this goes too far. Firstly, the term 'gentleman' has many connotations, from the epitome of manly ethical virtue, to, fascism. The term is a derivative of 'gentilhombre', 'chevalier' or 'knight'. You approached your old-style gent with a certain degree of awe ... or else! Nowadays we tend to use the word to denote a certain level of courtesy. Note that word too please. Had Rozsa applied his talents to a movie of the artistic merit of 'Body Heat' (an ETHICAL film, mark you) instead of tat like 'Knights of the Round Table' or 'Sodom and Gomorrah' (both of which produced scores none would wish absent) he'd be better known today. Any great artist needs to take on board all the levels of humanity from high to low. God help Michelangelo ot Titian, or almost anyone post 1600 by THESE criteria. So Dan, ask yourself how 'gentlemanly' it is to the above posters who praised the film. And ask yourself if an old style gent might not sneer and mutter 'bourgeois' at these observations? Rozsa was slated for 'The Night 'Porter'. I hope he was not the LIMITED man you paint him.
Last Edited By: William D McCrum
07/08/09 16:32:57.
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A Lee Hern |
OF POSTERS AND POSTERITY | ||
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And I must disagree with William. Rózsa wasn't that well-known in his own day, the era of his greatest success; if you're not well known winning three
Oscars and scoring the likes of BEN-HUR and EL CID, enormous hits by any standard, then you're just not going to be (granted, the absence
of a provision in Rózsa's MGM contract granting him a credit in films' publicity materials didn't help. His agent, Johnny Hyde, should've have
driven a harder bargain with the studio's L.K. Sidney).
The biggest impediments to greater fame for Rózsa were his artistic integrity and that very gentlemanliness: he wasn't interested in writing scores that lent themselves to adaptations into popular songs, and he wasn't a shameless self-promoter...both attributes of a certain Dimitri Tiomkin, the only film composer of that era who did come close to being a household name. It'd be another fifteen years after that BEN-HUR Oscar that another film composer would become an even more familiar name to the public: John Williams, on the strength of JAWS (reinforced by the succession of high-profile hits of STAR WARS, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK), and that's due, in no small part, to media that were far more interested in the work of behind-the-scenes artists and craftsmen than they were during Hollywood's Golden Age. I frankly don't think that a BODY HEAT would have "rescued" Rózsa's reputation by the early 1980s. It's just the luck of the draw that this film is better remembered (in my opinion, undeservedly) than are TIME AFTER TIME and EYE OF THE NEEDLE, but Rózsa wasn't composing for posterity, just dramas he was prssented with. PS: Just how many Dimitri Tiomkin Societies are operating these days?
Last Edited By: A Lee Hern
07/03/09 05:40:48.
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John Fitzpatrick |
Deja Vu | ||
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How many of us remember that Dan Guenzel expressed exactly the same sentiment in a letter to PMS back in our heyday (late 1970s or so)? There followed a reply
by (I think) Peter Kennedy of Massachusetts, who expressed his disagreement by analogy: he was glad that nobody had dissuaded Purcell from scoring such dubious
entertainments as The Gordian Knot Unty'd and Cuckolds Make Themselves,
because we would then have missed out on some wonderful music.
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John Fitzpatrick |
Reverting to Form/ | ||
He'd simply have gone back to his Paramount-Universal Noir sensibilities Yes, Lee, you are probably right. And that explains why Rozsa didn't get many film assignments during the 1970s. By that time, filmmakers were understandably looking for a different sensibility. Where he was selected, it was almost always because the director was consciously looking for a period or "retro" approach. Rozsa may have been the greatest and most powerful of Hollywood composers, and he was certainly capable of innovation. But nobody would describe him as the most versatile among his peers. Goldsmith and Williams far excelled him in that department, and that is why they dominated their era. |
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A Lee Hern |
TRULY SHARKING ADMISSIONS ABOUT FILM-SCORING | ||
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But would Rózsa have scored JAWS as effectively and memorably as Williams? Or STAR WARS? I think that the answer is yes: the big films of
the 1970s and '80s, with big themes, would have been right up his alley, just as much as they were in the 1950s and early '60s. Ironically, it
is the smaller films, like BODY HEAT, whose sensibilities evolved into something requiring -- or at least perceived as requiring -- a
different, more modern sensibility than Rózsa was used to providing, that might've flummoxed him.
But, then, there is the matter of parts of PROVIDENCE that belie the latter part of my above statement... |
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William D McCrum |
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Just looking at this again, I'm not sure that the parameters of 'gentlemanliness' account for this.
I have a strong feeling that 'Green Berets' really did for Rozsa in the 1960s. The film was not only a political pariah, but also one of his most mediocre scores. That was (even had it been a decent film) an opportunity for a newer more versatile approach, perhaps everything from atonal passages, to modern pop idiom, to serious dramatic music. But it didn't develop musically beyond just a run-of-the-mill style of almost WWII Pathe style documentary scoring. There were great moments like the actual theme (not that title song), the pseudo-VietNamese music, and the death chords, but it wasn't inspired, and was a dud out of time, as was the movie. Anyone in doubt, or wondering if the maestro was history would then have had fears confirmed. Did he score this grim film because he was a 'gentleman'? Elmer Bernstein was also a consummate gentleman in all his dealings, but he turned it down. Rozsa liked to say he scored 'Sodom and Gomorrah' as a 'favour' of some sort. Especially in this day and age, for the sake of youth, it's necessary to be more precise about these definitions. Let's be clear about it. A Victorian or Belle Epoch gentleman was no softie. He probably had discreet mistresses, carried a derringer, and had little time for his 'inferiors'. As has often been said, 'Chivalry is a compensation for unexpressed cruelty'. Your mediaeval knight had no respect for peasants overmuch, though he needed them in their place. The aristocratic bearing was not all it seems. Now was this really Rozsa? He sometimes conducted himself in an 'aristocratic' way. If you insulted him (see the 'Lost Weekend' theremin affair, and the 'Long Duel' competition proposal), he would refuse to speak to you, until an apology was forthcoming. (God knows what he'd have made of some of the vitriol on internet boards. I can think of a few 'fans' whose comments would certainly have made him distance himself). He also displayed loyalty to friends. But the dark side? Well, this is a man who could turn his nose down at things. Had he followed his 'aristocratic' leanings, he might never have been a film-composer at all, since he looked down on it all until Honegger enlightened him. There's the limitation. But he was no prude. His sexual force is in his music for all to hear. Dr. Johnson said, 'Music is the only form of sensuality without vice!' Rozsa was not above cracking 'tit' joke anecdotes in his autobiography re the 'Fertility Dance'. The simple fact is that he was multi-faceted like most people. And, as with all fan-club mentality he will be enlisted (like poor Michael Jackson) to whatever cause the fan wishes to identify with, as a projection. 'Pinch of salt needed. As regards 'Body Heat', the opportunity to expose his talents to a new generation might well have yielded more assignments, and, more importantly CRITICALLY WORTHY assignments that would have assisted his crossover TODAY with his concert activities. His desire to keep the two separate meant that he compartmentalised. Had he not done so, he might have been more cautious as to how the two sets of choices might impact on one another. Compartmentalisation always has the opposite effect to that intended. It means that the right hand doesn't then see at all how it is affected by the left. Avie mentions Tiomkin. Tiomkin is not well thought of in some Rozsa circles, not so much for any musical shortcomings perceived, as for the tendency to GRAB ASSIGNMENTS and make himself an American self-promoter. Now, my problem with this analysis is that the SOURCE of these criticisms is supposedly what Dr. Rozsa said about Tiomkin to Society members in meetings. Now ask yourself TRULY ... is that REALLY the act of a 'courteous' gentleman? In a 'lesser' man, wouldn't we call that gossip? We see what we need, no?
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07/08/09 16:41:11.
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A Lee Hern |
THE 'SUN' ALSO ROZSAS | ||
Now was this really Rozsa? He sometimes conducted himself in an 'aristocratic' way. If you insulted him (see the 'Lost Weekend' theremin affair, and the 'Long Duel' competition proposal), he would refuse to speak to you, until an apology was forthcoming. You mean, of course, DUEL IN THE SUN. |
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