EL CID Orchestrations

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Bill Wrobel	EL CID Orchestrations	Lead	[-]
Posts: 212 (09/17/08 22:21:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I received the excellent EL CID set (along with Tribute's THE KENTUCKIAN) on 9/11. I did not have a chance to read all of the 56 or so pages of the main El Cid topic but wondered about the orchestrations for the new recording. I decided to simply start a new Topic. As I discussed long ago, I found two written cues of EL CID mixed in the KING OF KINGS material at USC that Ned Comstock pulled for me: "Palace Music" and "Courage & Honor." Curiously, the folder they were in was marked "Not used." Apparently, after reading the Producers Notes towards the end of the handsome booklet, most of the music was freshly orchestrated by Nic Raine. I suppose the producers were not aware of the two original orchestrations mentioned being at USC? They were written in pencil. "Courage & Honor" was 30 pages in length, 118 bars, 2:27 (the ending had an "overlap" indication. "Palace Music" was 11 pages in length, 42 bars. I would be curious to see if Nic's orchestration that he constructed based on Rozsa's sketches differed in any way from the original orchestrations. For "Courage & Honor" the instrumentation on the title page is as follows: Piccolo/2 flutes/2 oboes/2 clarinets/bass clarinet/2 bassoons/4 horns/3 trumpets/ 3 Pos (3. sub as tuba)/timp/piano/harp/all strings (precise # not indicated). Just briefly describing "in words" what the first two bars are since I cannot transmit an actual image: The bass clarinet plays ffp middle (Line 1) rinforzando-marked C [written D] whole note tied to next two bars (etc), while bassoons play Great octave C/G rinforzando-marked tied whole notes.Pos play small octave Db/F/Bb rinforzando tied whole notes thru Bar 3 (etc), while the piano is tied on Great octave C/G/small octave C whole notes. The timp is trem fp on small octave C whole note tied to next two bars and to quarter note in Bar 4 (followed by rests). Violins I & II are trill p on Line 1 C# rinforzando whole note tied to whole notetwo bars and tied to half note in Bar 4 (etc). Divisi celli play ffp Great octave G/small octave C whole notes tied to next two bars (etc) while CB play small octave C tied whole notes. After a quarter and dotted 8th rest, top staff horns (2 horns) play in stopped ( + ) fashion small octave F [written Line 1 C] rinforzando 16th note to G [written D] half note tied to quarter note in Bar 2 to F to G to Ab [written C-D-Eb] rinforzando quarter notes to (Bar 3) Bb [written F] quarter note to Ab-Bb-Ab "3" triplet value 8ths to G half note tied to whole note next bar, etc. I wonder if anybody happens to have a copy of the re-orchestrated cue to make a comparison? As for "Palace Music" in 6/8 time, the instrumentation is: 2 Block Floten (2 recorders)/guitars/harp I/harp II. I would imagine the sketches would be especially clear on this simple arrangement but I do not have a copy. I don't of the previous cue I discussed (but I do of "Honor & Sorrow"). I noticed, by the way, that the booklet words it "Honour" although the sketch and the original orchestrated page states "Honor." Anyway, in Bar 1, the guitars play small octave A up to Line 1 E up to Line 2 C 8ths (crossbeam connected) and played twice. Harp I (top staff) plays (along with the recorders or ??) Line 1 A 8th up to Line 2 E quarter note to same E rinforzando 8th to E quarter note. The bottom staff Harp I plays Great octave A up to small octave E up to middle C 8th (repeated again). Harp II is arpeggiando (vertical wavy line rolled chord) on Great octave A/small octave C/middle C dotted quarter notes and (top staff) E/A dotted quarter notes and then repeated. From what I can tell so far in my preliminary study of some of the tracks with the sketches I happen to have, the new recording tends to be considerably slower than the original tracks conducted by Rozsa.In "Honor & Courage" the music on the dvd starts at 39:47. On the cd track # 10, it starts at the 5:18 point. By Bar 8, the cd has gone :30 seconds whereas the dvd traveled :18 (much faster). By Bar 14, the cd track has covered :55 while the dvd shows :32. By Bar 19, the cd has gone 1:18 while the dvd elapsed :45. The Prelude starts on the dvd at 3:28 thru 6:10. That's 2:42 duration. The cd track is 2:53 (slower). Personally I tend to like to have a rerecording follow the tempo of the original tracks more or less but if there is a great enough variance I'd prefer it to be slower (so that you can savor the music) than faster (rushed--"Hurry up and enjoy the music!"). At any rate I really enjoy this set.As I'll write in my new blog, the "sound" is not necessarily upfront dynamic (say, as the Tribute SHE recording) but it is pleasantly well-balanced and full. Thanks for your time!
Tadlow	Orchestrations part 2	#1	[-]
Posts: 108 (09/18/08 01:15:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Not wishing to go into any great depth re the EL CID orchestrations...as life is too short, at the moment. For the cue Courage and Honor I used Pat Russ's orchestration from the Koch recording....but in some cases, Palace Music in particular, Pat's orchestration followed the Munich Rozsa recording rather than the soundtrack. So on the Tadlow set you have both Pat's version of the Palace Music on Disc 3, and Nic recreation of the original orchestration on disc 1. So, in general there are some 50 minutes of Pat Russ' and Jeff Atmajian's orchestrations on the Tadlow CD, about 15 minutes of Eugene Zador's oriiginal, about 8 minutes of Chris Palmer orchestrations and then the rest (about 90 minutes) Nic did, being faithful to all the original sketches we had. As the sessions were split into 2 parts. The first being in September 207, the rest this year, I found some oddities in Pat's scoring that I then went back and re-recorded with Nic's more faithful version. For example last year I recorded the cue The Road to Asturias...but as it was based upon the Rozsa Munich album, it had about 20 bars missing. These I re-recorded using Nic's orchestration and was amazed when I actually spliced the two sections, recorded six months apart, that it actually worked. In the case of the Battle, Pat had made some Rozsa approved cues, these you hear on disc 3. But, I then went back and recorded the Battle music all over again with Nic's orchestration, this you har on disc 2. I could go on and on to great length about the real puzzle I had set myself by recording the orchestrations used for the Koch recordings (I was trying to sve a bit of money) and then go through all the sketches with Nic to see which bars had been left out. Sometimes there was no reason for the cuts and we found ourselves having to do an odd 8 bars here and another 12 bars there from the same cue. In fact it would have ben far easier to get Nic to start afresh and orchestrate all 150 minutes....but that would have mean an awful lot more expense! As to tempi...well this can be discussed (and I am sure will be) until the cows come home! All I can say is that for the very energetic and lively cues we used click track technology to get exactly on Rozsa's written tempi. In the more romantic, legato cues, I felt we should not have them sound mehanical (as using Clicks does) and that interpretation of the music here was paramount to get the correct feeling and drama rather than rigidly stick to ever frame. It really pains me to find that people will actually listen to different recordings and me comparisons based upon the stop-watch? Not too sure what Bill means by: the "sound" is not necessarily upfront dynamic It pretty well upfront from start to finish. Anyway, glad there 99.9% of listeners like EL CID. I am pretty happy with it too! Last Edited By: Tadlow 09/18/08 01:18:16. Edited 1 times.
Bill Wrobel	The Middle Road to Asturias	#2	[-]
Posts: 213 (09/18/08 15:21:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for the overview reply. Well, I can assure you that I definitely enjoy the cd set. One of the best. Sometimes a reviewer's attention to details means using a stopwatch, in effect, as a valid objective tool. Ironically in the cd booklet is a very appropos photo of Rozsa in front of his EL CID score with a stopwatch in his hand! It may be painful for some to use a stopwatch but remember that it is a tool that does not necessarily reveal faults in a recording but merely reveals differences. Sometimes it can be the former if a listener's comfort level is disturbed by a tempo he is not used to (too fast or too slow) compared to the original tracks.He may get to like it, get used to it and accept it, but it's noticed immediately. That criticism was directed at Herrmann, for instance, in what people regarded as his "too slow" tempo of his own recording when he was recording the London lps. Now: One of my favorite motion cues in this score is "The Road to Asturias" (start of track # 22). On the dvd it starts at 1:19:40. Here is a wonderful example in the cd where the tempo is precisely the same as Rozsa's (variance of only a second at best). It's right in the middle, right on the money. I particularly like the section starting at :42 on the cd (I believe 1:20:22 dvd) with that dynamic repeated rhythm. In instances like this when the alignment is perfect or near perfect, I enjoy turning off the dvd audio feed and instead play the cd track instead aligned precisely with the scene. You'll get to hear the nice stereo performance with all your speakers to enhance the viewing/listening experience. Another recent example of this alignment was the excellent Stromberg version of Tribute's cd SHE where I took the "Avalanche" cue on the cd and listened to it as I watched the scene on the dvd. Tribute track #7 "Avalanche" ; O.T. track #5 "Avalanche" 2:34 - 3:31 ;dvd 23:09 - 24:34. So Tadlow probably did here in Asturias what was mentioned regarding click track technology being used in "action" cues. Of course one cannot do such alignment with new cd tracks with the tempo way too fast or way too slow. The "Palace Music" on the Tadlow track is the same tempo as Rozsa's rendition, I can add. I have written more in my Blog # 37 that'll be out within a week perhaps. An example to me of a truly upfront dynamic-sounding cd is Tribute's FAHRENHEIT 451. I am not a sound technician so I cannot find the proper words at times, but the crispness or clarity (I think it's called transparency) is wonderful.Definite highs and lows in terms of signals but relatively no distortion. Another example is the end of the "Prelude" of THE KENTUCKIAN. Great separation and definition of the timbres used (low woodwinds especially).The spectrum demonstrated was clean and sharp. Another example is a 2000 Stravinsky cd that got awards titled "Shadow Dances" played by the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra. Fabulous-sounding cd. Of course, much like the Fahrenheit 451 recording, it was a relatively small ensemble--at least compared to a major orchestra for EL CID, or MYSTERIOUS ISLAND, and so forth that can offer greater demanding complexities in the recording process I'm sure! Most recordings I hear are not as crystal distinctive but are quite good, very well-balanced, excellent tonal balance in the frequency spectrum--tho sometimes the very low bass or very high pitches may not fare as well. I don't know what it is--compression that reduces a small bit of the dynamic range. I don't know. But the presence in EL CID is quite satisfying, balanced, good resonance of the low strings, and so forth. In simple terms, very nice! I'm glad I bought it. I think I'll play now once again "The Road to Asturias" Tadlow track aligned to the dvd scene....
George Komar	TWO THUMBS UP	#3	[-]
Posts: 559 (09/19/08 16:42:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I finally received my copies of EL CID this week, and listening to them (whenever I could find time) was a joyful experience (I still haven't watched the videos on Disc 3.) This is an EL CID for the 21^st century, truly a revelation to those who have loved the score since its inception, as well as to those discovering Rózsa's work for the first time in the new millennium. Nic Raine's orchestrations are as perfect as can be. Not even Rózsa's Munich recording can surpass Raine's rendering of the "Palace Music." The same is true of the entr'acte; the coda, with its wildly shifting syncopated rhythms, is a knockout. Frank DeWald's liner notes are genuinely authoritative; he writes with the musicological mantle of a Christopher Palmer. James Fitzpatrick has assembled a superlative team for his project. Has anyone else noticed that there are two versions of the principal theme? An earlier form of the "El Cid theme" (its melody simplified after the ninth note) makes its first appearance when Moutamin prophesies of Rodrigo's "Destiny" as a wise leader and great warrior. The more familiar version makes its debut (aside from the "Prelude") only when Rodrigo obediently takes up his destiny and picks up "The Gauntlet" at the service of king and country. At its climax "Ben Yussef" juxtaposes two prayers, the Muslim call to prayer (reminiscent of the introductory swirling motif that introduces the "Prelude") and the subsequent prayer of the priest ("Heavenly Father...") which leads to Rodrigo's pre-Cid motif (that inspired James Horner's Zorro theme). It's nice to be able to hear all this (and "Burgos") without dialogue and SFX. When the duel between Gormaz and Rodrigo begins ("Courage and Honour"), Raine leads the way. The orchestra may well be playing precisely to the composer's marked tempo, but I have a little difficulty making out the notes (unlike the Sedares recording, which is too slow and lacks energy), so I have to agree with Raine that "Rózsa is crazy sometimes!" ...and I can understand Bill's preference at times for slower tempos. But the inclusion of the "sword thrust" is a stroke of genius!! - and I'm sure that's one sound effect to which Rózsa would not have objected; I'm certain that it would have brought a wicked smile to his face (too bad that he didn't live long enough to hear this recording rather than the Sedares). The theme for "Rodrigo's Men" is an unexpected treasure, and its treatment in "Unity," with its Scottish-snap rhythm immediately brings to mind Tadlow's wonderful "Sherlock Holmes" recording from last year; the Prague orchestra must have experienced déja vu while playing this piece. Very welcome is the inclusion of not one, but two, pieces of Moorish source music ("Al Kadir' Delights" and "Moorish Feast"- or is it "Moorish Tent" according to Frank's two part 1992 article?). What's a Rózsa epic without a little Arabesque music. The highlight of Disc 2 is "Valencia For The Cid!" When the march yields to that triumphant, regal rendering of the El Cid theme, the listener's soul soars with it, as Rodrigo ascends the citadel steps to be offered (and refuse) the crown. The closing fanfares leave no doubts as to whom the Cid renders allegiance. Who else but Rózsa could score an eight minute battle sequence and hold your attention for the entire duration; there's not an idle moment. There is a pause at the 2:44 point that marks the conclusion of "Battle-Part I," but Rózsa broke up the sequence into three parts for his orchestra to facilitate recording the score. Raine has recorded it, and James has retained it, but it was originally intended by the composer to be elided over the beginning of "Battle-Part II." It has a slightly disconcerting effect of pausing the musical action, so, in making a CD copy for the car, I have eliminated it (by overlaying the pause over the next phrase) with my wave editing program. I'm also not fond of the silences between cues (unless there's a dramatic reason for them), especially if the composer had intended a seamless continuity. So I elided the end of "Prelude" with the beginning of "Ben Yussef" (as on the Munich and Sedares recordings). The same also holds true for "The Slap"/"Count Gormaz." For other sequences (such as the first 5 tracks of Disc 2, and "Revolt"/"Valencia For The Cid!") I have nudged the cues closer together to form a more continuous musical sequence. I also fixed that flattened note at the beginning of "Bad News" by lifting the proper note from the Sedares recording and inserting it seamlessly into the Tadlow recording. Some people would accuse me of wasting time and being anal, but when I love a recording as much as I do this one, I celebrate and give it the royal treatment. Finally, both of the two "Legend and Epilogue" cues are superbly executed. The chorus for "The Falcon and the Dove" even manages to give the piece a dramatic musical depth that I found remarkable, proving that it's not what you sing (the choir does a great job of masking the words without slurring them) but how you sing it (like a profound prayer). Kudos! For some strange reason, I suspect that James had a easier time balancing the mix between the chorus and the orchestra for the Paul Francis Webster version than for the wordless version (or at least it seems so to me).
A Lee Hern	THE PLACID EYE AT THE CENTER OF A RÓZSA HURRICANE	#4	[-]
Posts: 4700 (09/19/08 18:43:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Who else but Rózsa could score an eight minute battle sequence and hold your attention for the entire duration; there's not an idle moment. There is a pause at the 2:44 point that marks the conclusion of "Battle-Part I," but Rózsa broke up the sequence into three parts for his orchestra to facilitate recording the score. Are you sure that the pause isn't for a reel change, George, as is the case with IVANHOE's Battle of Torquilstone Castle? And I'd love to hear the mended version of the the first 5 tracks of Disc 2, and "Revolt"/"Valencia For The Cid!" you cobbled together. Last Edited By: A Lee Hern 09/19/08 18:45:22. Edited 1 times.
Breda Von Krolock		#5	[-]
Posts: 272 (09/19/08 20:00:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	George Komar wrote: TWO THUMBS UP
A Lee Hern	IF NERO HAD GIVEN THIS REPONSE TO URSUS AND LYGIA, HE'D BE ALIVE TODAY	#6	[-]
Posts: 4701 (09/19/08 23:11:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"Double-jointed" people give me the creeps.
George Komar	IN THAT CASE, FOUR THUMBS UP!	#7	[-]
Posts: 560 (09/20/08 07:27:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A Lee Hern wrote: Are you sure that the pause isn't for a reel change, George, as is the case with IVANHOE's Battle of Torquilstone Castle? No, I just checked, the Valencia edit occurs precisely as I described it above, at the 40:48 mark on the second DVD of the new Miriam Collection issue. As for the first 5 tracks of Disc 2 on the Tadlow set, all I did is overlay (not cross-fade) the next track before the the final chord on the previous track had totally dissipated, so that, for example, "Friendship" begins on the heels of "Forgiveness." "Banishment" and "Forgiveness" are already joined, as are "Count Gormaz/Courage and Honour/Gormaz' Death/Honour and Sorrow," so what I did is nothing radical. I also joined "Unity" and "Moorish Feast/Moorish Tent" the same way, as those two tracks musically "belong" together. The same for "The Arrow/The Promise" and "The Cid's Death." Likewise "The Slap" should lead directly into "Count Gormaz," as in the film: usually I aim for a "sweet spot," nudging the beginning of the second track into the tail end of the first at a transition point that sounds completely natural, as if the two pieces were recorded together. A more important edit is the one between "Burgos" and "Palace Music," in which the first note of "Palace Music" is superimposed precisely over the start of the final chord of "Burgos," again as in the film. Again, all of this is my personal perspective of how I prefer to listen to the recording; except for the most passionate Rozsaphiles, most people, I suspect, couldn't care less. Radio broadcasters, in particular, would no doubt prefer to have "Palace Music" isolated for airplay. Anyway, four thumbs for this release it is!
George Komar	KING OF KINGS MEETS EL CID	#8	[-]
Posts: 561 (09/21/08 19:49:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I was listening to "Betrayal/Ambush" again this evening. At the end of the piece Rózsa quotes his "Judas" motif from KING OF KINGS, in portraying Don Ordoñez as a traitor. This recording is a revelation in more than one sense of the word!
A Lee Hern	THE VENGEFUL WIFE: A CHIMENE DE FER	#9	[-]
Posts: 4703 (09/21/08 23:34:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A wonderful, sly touch on Rózsa's part. Only in the contested Gospel of James is Judas rehabilitated, as is Count Ordoñez in EL CID.
William D McCrum		#10	[-]
Posts: 1748 (09/22/08 05:37:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	When I was preparing a 'total' 'Ivanhoe', I remember extending by cut-paste the drum section of the 'Callenge and Finale' to about 28 beats (?) rather than the 8 on the Intrada. I stole the fanfares from the DVD duel scene, and by stretching them ever so slightly got the OST drumbeats to coincide with the Intrada's, so that the latter washed them out when overlaid. The SFX of the crowd etc. seemed to more or less disappear behind the trumpets. Then I spliced in a stereo-spread mix of the Rhino trumpet calls cue, and it was quite interesting. 'Compromised by a sound-card problem though at the time. If we're to be obsessive about it, I wonder if the fanfares at the beginning of the concert 'Coronation' would be moved to a position between 'The Investiture' and 'The Expedition' where they provide a very effective bridge as in the OST. I wonder if in fact that's where they belong?
Tadlow	a gap or two	#11	[-]
Posts: 111 (09/22/08 05:37:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I spent quite a while putting in the "gaps" in the tracks, as although some did indicate segues in the score, I felt the music did a little bit a "breathing space" rather than be tooooo continuous. But, I have not objection, if you want to take to my silences....you are just destroying years of hard work by the producer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .......only joking of course
Tadlow	re edit	#12	[-]
Posts: 112 (09/22/08 05:38:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	isn't this re-editing of my recording going just a wee bit too far?
William D McCrum		#13	[-]
Posts: 1750 (09/22/08 06:36:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	isn't this re-editing of my recording going just a wee bit too far? 'What could give more satisfaction to the Moors than to see two Christian kings and their armies tear my recording to bits...?'
George Komar	"WHAT A NOBLE SUBJECT"	#14	[-]
Posts: 562 (09/22/08 08:00:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tadlow wrote: isn't this re-editing of my recording going just a wee bit too far? I see it as a tribute to your near-perfect results, James. A lesser recording would not be worth the effort. Your recording is a true gem, a work of art. Think of it as polishing a resplendent diamond... Or reframing a Rembrandt. Last Edited By: George Komar 09/22/08 08:47:07. Edited 2 times.
A Lee Hern	A QUIET MAN NOT SCORED BY VICTORY YOUNG	#15	[-]
Posts: 4704 (09/22/08 08:38:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Intervals of silence © 2008 by Tadlow, Inc., all rights reserved.
Tadlow	Silence	#16	[-]
Posts: 113 (09/22/08 09:13:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	with the silences I had to be very careful of timings....just in case I might get sued by John Cages's publishers!
Jani Kyllonen	Zador Orchestrations	#17	[-]
Posts: 13 (09/22/08 23:26:11) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	James, at first I must say what a wonderful recording El Cid is. I got it yesterday and I can't stop listening it. But to the topic, you stated that you used only 15 minutes of original Zador orchestrations for your recording. I don't know if you know but University of Wyoming has original Zador orchestrations for following cues Ben Yussef Reel 2 Part 1 (?) Palace Music Reel 3 Part 2 Honor and Sorrow Reel 5 Part 3 The Count of Ferdinand Reel 5 Part 4 Prelude to Jousting Reel 6 Part 1 Road to Asturias Reel 10 Part 2 Thirteen Knights Reel 10 Part 3 Banishment Reel 13 Part 2 Farewell Reel 14 Part 3 The Twins Reel 15 Part 2 For God and Spain Reel 19 Part 1 Battle Part I Reel 19 Part 2 Battle Part II Reel 19 Part 3 Battle Part III Reel 19 Part 4 Cid's Death Reel 21 Part 3 this amounts about 30 minutes of music in Zador's hand. Only Cid's Death is in different handwriting, Palmer's probably? Palace Music might be the same as the orchestration in USC.
Tadlow	a m inute here	#18	[-]
Posts: 114 (09/22/08 23:36:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Zador's orchestrations were the ones Pat Russ and Jeff Atmajian used and "adapted" for the Koch recording....

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EL CID Orchestrations

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